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icepixieIt's been a while, hasn't it? Yeah, this string of episodes is pretty traumatic for me. I've been putting it off.
Between the Darkness and the Light
aka OH GOD, SUSAN!!!
Oh, lord, this episode. Ack. Ack.
Okay, so I basically have nothing new to say about it, since I flailed a lot about Susan being fatally injured and Marcus being kinda creepy in the White Star's dorm last time. And yeah, other things happen in this episode, like Lyta being cool and Franklin being awesome, but it is really All About Ivanova for me. I don't think I'm ever not going to cry in the scene where she's lying in sickbay and talking to Sheridan.
One thing I gave some thought to this time around was Susan's speech to the EA captains; you know, the one where she says, "I am Susan Ivanova. Commander. Daughter of Andrei and Sofie Ivanov...." I don't entirely understand why she says she's their daughter in the same breath as "Commander"; presumably these people haven't a clue who her parents were. Is it that her mother's death drives everything she does, not just her relationship with Psi Corps/telepaths? That's kind of sad. Did her parents do something--presumably inadvertently--to prepare her specifically for this moment, and she wants to honor them? Why not mention Ganya?
Also, strategy-wise, I have never understood why the rest of the fleet couldn't have hung out in hyperspace near the ambush point to help out when needed. Even with the EA ships having Shadow tech, the entire fleet could've wiped the floor with them.
Endgame
aka OH GOD, MARCUS!!!
I still sniffled a little at Marcus's carrying out of his deathwish, and I still think him actually saying "I love you" was too much--I mean, the actions make the point so much more eloquently--but whatever.
That ISN reporter coming back online is still so great. Didn't someone write an epic fic following her through the occupation and war? Maybe someone just mentioned wanting to.
I kind of love how "We have come home" sounds so much like a threat.
...Yeah, despite the other awesome things, this episode is still pretty much All About Ivanova for me.
Rising Star
I'd forgotten how much I really, really like Luchenko. Hee, "Don't make the mistake of assuming this is a conversation." You know, as much as I do think Roslin and Delenn are alike in a lot of ways, I'm pretty sure Luchenko is even more like Madame Airlock. I don't think she'd have a problem spacing someone if it was necessary to preserve her government.
One thing that I think harms this episode in more than one place is a lot of inferred characterization. For example, Susan revealing that she not only knew Marcus loved her, but that she loved him. Which shocked the hell out of me the first time through, because seriously, they've shared about eight scenes together over two years. Sure, they were cute as hell, and Marcus obviously had a big crush on her, but I don't know that I ever bought that he knew her well enough to love her. (Though, granted, he might have thought he did.) And the closest we get to any kind of recognition of his affection from her is that scene two episodes previous where she parrots his Minbari compliment back to him, which I read as her saying, "So I know you like me. I kind of like you too. Perhaps we could discuss this once we're done leading a rebellion." So...I dunno. Something about that scene is still weird.
(I mean, compare the scene between Delenn and Lennier from this very same episode, where he's repeating Susan's words about all love being unrequited, and she's very blithely going, "That's not true!" and patting him on the head, and he's got this horribly disillusioned look on his face. It is bleeding obvious what's going through everyone's head there, especially Lennier's, and I keep wanting to shout at Delenn to just look at him and see what's happening. There's no inferred characterization; it's all right there.)
That said, both Claudia Christian and Richard Biggs do an amazing job with that scene. Wow.
The other big place where this inferred characterization shows up is with Garibaldi and Lise. Edgars has been dead less than a month and they're already planning to get married? Wooooow. Maybe it's just my dislike of Lise making it impossible for me to be objective about this--after all, Garibaldi has kind of been pining for her since S2, much to my disgust--but I feel like a hell of lot happened off screen there, and some of it should've been on screen if we were to believe this. (Though that would mean more of them together on my screen. Hmmm. Maybe it's better that this stays inferred.)
Anyway. I'm kind of in love with the fact that Delenn is the one to really organize the first steps of the ISA. I still think she would've made a better president, but I guess that wasn't going to happen in 1997. (I also realized for the first time that it's pretty much the advisory council, by which I mean Delenn/Londo/G'Kar, and possibly the other ambassadors-cum-ISA members, who vote Sheridan into that position, isn't it? For some reason, I had been thinking it was more of a popular vote, or at least that the governments of the member worlds had a bigger say in things. Much of Sheridan's presidency begins to be explained, I think...)
Heh, this episode was totally written before they got the S5 renewal notice, wasn't it? Delenn's speech ties things up so nicely, and leads in to "Sleeping in Light" so very well.
All right, I think I may stop my rewatch for now and just catch up with S5 once![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
beyond_the_rim gets there. Three reasons: First, a season without Ivanova is a season without a heart for me, much as I like the Londo, G'Kar, and some of the Lyta bits. Second, much of the fun this time around was catching all the bits of foreshadowing that happened in the earlier seasons. I've noticed that ever since I hit the midpoint of S4, I've had practically nothing new to say, and I don't want to just repeat myself. Third, with the exception of a moment I need from "Meditations on the Abyss," I've finally gotten all the footage I need* for my Big Gentastic B5 Vid. \o/ More on that when it's closer to being done.
* Well, unless/until I decide to make the idea in my head for "A Good Day," for which I will need a crapload of S5 stuff. Fully half of that vid is going to come from SiL, though, which makes things slightly easier...
Between the Darkness and the Light
aka OH GOD, SUSAN!!!
Oh, lord, this episode. Ack. Ack.
Okay, so I basically have nothing new to say about it, since I flailed a lot about Susan being fatally injured and Marcus being kinda creepy in the White Star's dorm last time. And yeah, other things happen in this episode, like Lyta being cool and Franklin being awesome, but it is really All About Ivanova for me. I don't think I'm ever not going to cry in the scene where she's lying in sickbay and talking to Sheridan.
One thing I gave some thought to this time around was Susan's speech to the EA captains; you know, the one where she says, "I am Susan Ivanova. Commander. Daughter of Andrei and Sofie Ivanov...." I don't entirely understand why she says she's their daughter in the same breath as "Commander"; presumably these people haven't a clue who her parents were. Is it that her mother's death drives everything she does, not just her relationship with Psi Corps/telepaths? That's kind of sad. Did her parents do something--presumably inadvertently--to prepare her specifically for this moment, and she wants to honor them? Why not mention Ganya?
Also, strategy-wise, I have never understood why the rest of the fleet couldn't have hung out in hyperspace near the ambush point to help out when needed. Even with the EA ships having Shadow tech, the entire fleet could've wiped the floor with them.
Endgame
aka OH GOD, MARCUS!!!
I still sniffled a little at Marcus's carrying out of his deathwish, and I still think him actually saying "I love you" was too much--I mean, the actions make the point so much more eloquently--but whatever.
That ISN reporter coming back online is still so great. Didn't someone write an epic fic following her through the occupation and war? Maybe someone just mentioned wanting to.
I kind of love how "We have come home" sounds so much like a threat.
...Yeah, despite the other awesome things, this episode is still pretty much All About Ivanova for me.
Rising Star
I'd forgotten how much I really, really like Luchenko. Hee, "Don't make the mistake of assuming this is a conversation." You know, as much as I do think Roslin and Delenn are alike in a lot of ways, I'm pretty sure Luchenko is even more like Madame Airlock. I don't think she'd have a problem spacing someone if it was necessary to preserve her government.
One thing that I think harms this episode in more than one place is a lot of inferred characterization. For example, Susan revealing that she not only knew Marcus loved her, but that she loved him. Which shocked the hell out of me the first time through, because seriously, they've shared about eight scenes together over two years. Sure, they were cute as hell, and Marcus obviously had a big crush on her, but I don't know that I ever bought that he knew her well enough to love her. (Though, granted, he might have thought he did.) And the closest we get to any kind of recognition of his affection from her is that scene two episodes previous where she parrots his Minbari compliment back to him, which I read as her saying, "So I know you like me. I kind of like you too. Perhaps we could discuss this once we're done leading a rebellion." So...I dunno. Something about that scene is still weird.
(I mean, compare the scene between Delenn and Lennier from this very same episode, where he's repeating Susan's words about all love being unrequited, and she's very blithely going, "That's not true!" and patting him on the head, and he's got this horribly disillusioned look on his face. It is bleeding obvious what's going through everyone's head there, especially Lennier's, and I keep wanting to shout at Delenn to just look at him and see what's happening. There's no inferred characterization; it's all right there.)
That said, both Claudia Christian and Richard Biggs do an amazing job with that scene. Wow.
The other big place where this inferred characterization shows up is with Garibaldi and Lise. Edgars has been dead less than a month and they're already planning to get married? Wooooow. Maybe it's just my dislike of Lise making it impossible for me to be objective about this--after all, Garibaldi has kind of been pining for her since S2, much to my disgust--but I feel like a hell of lot happened off screen there, and some of it should've been on screen if we were to believe this. (Though that would mean more of them together on my screen. Hmmm. Maybe it's better that this stays inferred.)
Anyway. I'm kind of in love with the fact that Delenn is the one to really organize the first steps of the ISA. I still think she would've made a better president, but I guess that wasn't going to happen in 1997. (I also realized for the first time that it's pretty much the advisory council, by which I mean Delenn/Londo/G'Kar, and possibly the other ambassadors-cum-ISA members, who vote Sheridan into that position, isn't it? For some reason, I had been thinking it was more of a popular vote, or at least that the governments of the member worlds had a bigger say in things. Much of Sheridan's presidency begins to be explained, I think...)
Heh, this episode was totally written before they got the S5 renewal notice, wasn't it? Delenn's speech ties things up so nicely, and leads in to "Sleeping in Light" so very well.
All right, I think I may stop my rewatch for now and just catch up with S5 once
beyond_the_rim gets there. Three reasons: First, a season without Ivanova is a season without a heart for me, much as I like the Londo, G'Kar, and some of the Lyta bits. Second, much of the fun this time around was catching all the bits of foreshadowing that happened in the earlier seasons. I've noticed that ever since I hit the midpoint of S4, I've had practically nothing new to say, and I don't want to just repeat myself. Third, with the exception of a moment I need from "Meditations on the Abyss," I've finally gotten all the footage I need* for my Big Gentastic B5 Vid. \o/ More on that when it's closer to being done.* Well, unless/until I decide to make the idea in my head for "A Good Day," for which I will need a crapload of S5 stuff. Fully half of that vid is going to come from SiL, though, which makes things slightly easier...
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no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 05:47 am (UTC)As for Marcus, it's the last chance he has to say those words. And I know that if I only had a moment left to say something to my husband, that is what I would say. He's not saying it to make the point his gesture alreay has; he's saying it for himself.
Delenn for President would only have happened if she'd been the Chosen One instead of Sheridan.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 06:09 pm (UTC)he's saying it for himself
Be that as it may--and I don't think you're wrong--at the same time, it also reads to me like JMS not being sure of the writing, and wanting to make absolutely sure that we Get It, and also to wring a last few tears from his audience.
Delenn for President would only have happened if she'd been the Chosen One instead of Sheridan.
But the whole prophecy thing pretty much ends once Sinclair jaunts back to the first Shadow War; I got the impression any staying power it had was completely over by the end of our Shadow War. Isn't the whole point of Sheridan and Delenn's conversation on the way back to B5 in "Into the Fire" that they aren't bound by what older races/prophecies have done and said, and can choose their own paths?
(Unless you meant "Chosen One" in the sense of him being the main character on the show, which I get. Still don't like it, but I get it.)
no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 01:36 pm (UTC)One day I'm going to write a treatise on Why I Hate Sheridan Becoming President of the ISA. It will include meaty sections on how he was voted in by all his buddies, and the fact that Delenn does most of the work, anyway, and shouldn't just be the equivalent of the First Lady. Argh.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 03:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 06:30 pm (UTC)One day I'm going to write a treatise on Why I Hate Sheridan Becoming President of the ISA. It will include meaty sections on how he was voted in by all his buddies, and the fact that Delenn does most of the work, anyway, and shouldn't just be the equivalent of the First Lady. Argh.
YES, YES, ALL OF THIS, OMG. (Although technically isn't she both Vice Prez and Ranger One? I still think Sheridan would've made a better Ranger One, Delenn President, and someone entirely different for VP.)
no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 06:46 pm (UTC)Was she the VP? I can't remember. Jeez, Sheridan. Your wife is the VP and all your friends are the main council. Why call it the Interstellar Alliance? Just call it the Sheridan Owns the Galaxy Club. And he made his ex-wife CO of Babylon 5! Lord. I love the meathead, but he took all that "you're the one" crap really seriously.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 08:15 pm (UTC)I'm pretty sure she was. I know something was made of the fact that she had been VP and was then President in SiL. (And John was VP once she became President, which...ow, my head.)
Jeez, Sheridan. Your wife is the VP and all your friends are the main council. Why call it the Interstellar Alliance? Just call it the Sheridan Owns the Galaxy Club. And he made his ex-wife CO of Babylon 5! Lord. I love the meathead, but he took all that "you're the one" crap really seriously.
FOR REALZ. Ooof.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 03:17 pm (UTC)Good call on the rewatch. I was chugging along at about 4 episodes a week until I hit Season 5. I actually had to admit to myself the other night that I JUST DON'T LIKE SEASON 5. This is the first time I've ever admit it. It was painful.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 06:33 pm (UTC)I didn't even like S5 my first time through. To be honest, there are still parts of it (BYRON) I haven't seen, because I sped through them to save my sanity.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 04:37 pm (UTC)Many years ago a Russian friend told me Susan's recitation of the lineage of her family name was very old school Russian military behaviour in the face of certain death.
The family name gave the weight of the person's heritage. Rank listed what the person has done to honor and personally add to that heritage. Since Susan had no children, and she is career military at this point, her addition to the family honor was the accomplishment of attaining that rank.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-04 06:34 pm (UTC)