icepixie: ([B5] Ivanova Garibaldi this moment)
[personal profile] icepixie
Comes the Inquisitor
This episode made more sense this time around, but I still have some ideological bones to pick with it.

The central argument appears to be that the Vorlons, or at any rate Kosh (it's unclear exactly how much of their auspices he's operating under), believe that if a person engages in a holy war thinking he or she is somehow chosen and thus above the law, bad things will happen and this person will turn into a modern-day Jack the Ripper. Only when we determine that a person does not believe they are the One True Hero and that someone else could take their place will that person manage to avoid the pitfalls of power.

I...am going to have to disagree for this particular situation. Something like this, you need egomaniacs who believe they can/will win and who are FUCKING CRAZY, like Delenn and to a lesser extent Sheridan, because sane people are going to take one look at the odds and go, "Well, shit, we're screwed." Then you give those people advisers, like Garibaldi, Ivanova, Lennier, etc., so they don't go too far off the deep end. You need people who are going to sacrifice their foot soldiers, as Sheridan does in "The Long Night" when he sends a White Star out to give false intelligence to the Shadows and inevitably get shot down. They have to sacrifice their peons rather than themselves because they are the ones with all the pieces, and by the time someone else gathers all the pieces together again, it may well be too late.

For a while, I wondered if the test was purely to confirm that Delenn has the right level of egomaniacal insanity--if she continues insisting she's The One even when Sebastian zaps her, then she's not going to back down when she faces the Shadows. Then she says she's considered she's wrong, and Sebastian says there's hope for her, apparently destroying that possibility. But then at the end, Sebastian kinda-sorta confirms the prophecy--they are the right people at the right place, etc., because they are willing to sacrifice themselves for each other and lose out on any kind of fame. While I think it is useful for Delenn in particular to get a reality check on how things such as turning half-human are going to be received, I believe the previous paragraph explains my issues with that conclusion. Anyway, if the Vorlons, to whom the Minbari look up to as sort of demi-gods, confirm via Sebastian that she's the right person, then isn't that just adding weight to her conclusion that she's been chosen, whether it's for believing she hasn't been chosen or not? Did the test actually serve to do anything besides give her outside confirmation to her feeling that she's The One?

In addition, three things point to some part of the stated objective--that Delenn shouldn't believe in her destiny--being not entirely true. First, Sebastian tells her to cry out so that the universe will come to her rescue. On some level it...kind of does, since Lennier and then Sheridan show up to help her. Points for her actually having that destiny she thinks she has?

Also, the Vorlons are...not exactly innocent angels of light in this scenario, as we learn in S4. This test may not have had any meaning at all--it might have just been a way to screw with Delenn. The Vorlons like order; Delenn is, on some level, defying it. In their eyes, she might need to be knocked down a few notches.

The final, most interesting thing that leads me to believe the whole test was flawed is the counterpoint that G'Kar's plot plays to it. This test checks out logically: if he can't get a message back to Narn, why should the other Narns believe he can get weapons there? They'll accept his leadership, accept his plot to send weapons to the resistance, and give him their money if he can provide proof of his abilities with the message. He uses his connections with the station's military, which they do not have, to do this, thus proving he's the right person for that position. No faffing about with "Who are you," no ridiculous manacles o' pain, just pure and simple setting of a goal and delivery of results. I am going to believe that this counterpoint indicates the Vorlon test was so much bullshit.

Anyway. Two other things about the episode:

1. Oh, Garibaldi. I love you. Not only do you help out G'Kar, but you do it with the most breathtaking pessimism. "I never start a conversation unless I know where it's going, but I always leave a little room for someone to disappoint me." (He and Ivanova are so obviously cynical, idealistic, pessimistic soul mates, I swear.)

2. The scene in the transport tube with Vir and G'Kar just breaks my heart. :(

The Fall of Night
I think at the moment I look fondly on this episode because it's singlehandedly provided me with about a tenth of the footage I want to use in my vid. But it's a good episode on its own as well. We learn a lot about the Vorlons, the war plot gets moved along, and EarthGov is phenomenally stupid.

(Okay, one thing I didn't like about the episode: you cannot tell me that even 300 years on, a diplomat is going to use "We will know peace in our time" unironically. You cannot. Also, way to hurl that anvil, JMS. I figured out you were making a reference to the Munich Pact on my own, thanks.)

I don't have a lot to say about the movement of all the chess pieces, beyond the fact that I'm excited for how they set up S3 (and the Centauri attack on the station was still pretty adrenaline-rushy). So here are little notes:

- I will forever love Vir and Lennier's bitch sessions at the bar. FOREVER. Hee. I have seen sadly little fic for them (either slash or friendship); I kind of want to write some now.

- It still boggles the hell out of me that John Vickery plays both Wells and Neroon.

- Lantze (amusingly, played by Roy Dotrice, aka Coach Pamchenko in The Cutting Edge) just doesn't know when to quit with Susan, does he? "Kids? Family?" Awww.

- Oh, Zack. I love it when you show glimmers of goodness.

- Not sad to see Keffer go, gotta say.

- Wellll, Delenn, I think pretty much everyone's going to wind up subscribing to the Vorlons-as-manipulators perspective in a couple years.

- Is there some kind of fanon consensus on why Londo (says he) didn't see anything when Kosh left his suit? I'm leaning toward it having to do with a lack of religious faith--notice how Garibaldi wasn't there either--but maybe it's something else. Or he was lying, for whatever reason.

- I kind of love Ivanova lighting the candles in her menorah a whole, whole lot.

Season Three next!

Date: 2010-07-19 11:05 pm (UTC)
bessemerprocess: Elder duckie Ursala Vernon (acid-ink) (Default)
From: [personal profile] bessemerprocess
I desperately want someone to write the AU where Sheridan dies early on in the war and Ivanova and Garibaldi do have to step and be the One. (I already have my massive B5 AU, so I'm calling NOT IT!)


Admittedly, I usually skip Comes the Inquisitor when rewatching just out of eh.

Date: 2010-07-19 11:07 pm (UTC)
aria: ([babylon 5] power couple)
From: [personal profile] aria
Re: Comes the Inquisitor -- it reminds me very much of a moment at the end of the book Prince Caspian. I'm paraphrasing here, but basically Aslan and Caspian have a conversation in which Caspian says, "I don't think I'm ready to be king," and Aslan replies, "That is exactly why you are ready." It's a sort of ... the humble and self-sacrificing will be rewarded thing, and it works for me because, as practical real-world applications go, absolutely G'Kar and the Narn are the ones going about it the right way, but what the Vorlons want confirmation on is that they have crazy leaders they can still control, who will believe that they are The Ones because they are full of Goodness and Humility and Self-Sacrifice, and that the Vorlons have now confirmed their divine right to rule.

Which is a bit terrifying, actually.

In other news, you're making me want to write Lennier and Vir awkward friendship fic. A "five things the diplomatic attachés commiserated about at the bar" sort of fic. :D

Re: why Londo doesn't see anything, I think the implication is that he is so immersed in Shadows that he can't see the other side anymore. I suspect it really is just that he has no religious faith, and didn't have anything to see, but his depression at having seen nothing says he's reading a lot more into it. Alternately, Kosh might have made sure he saw nothing, as a punishment or to give nothing away to the enemy. *shrug*

Date: 2010-07-21 05:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] singer-shaper.livejournal.com
It never occurred to me to construe the Vorlon test as BS, but I like how you've done that. It seems to me that on B5, there are two kinds of destiny -- what you think it is and what it really is -- which bleed into each other a lot, e.g. Londo seeing that G'kar will strangle him in twenty years without knowing why.

I also like Vir and Lennier's chat. Their friendship isn't made much of in the series, which is a shame because it's probably groundbreaking for a Minbari and Centauri to be so friendly.

As for Londo not seeing anything when Kosh rescued Sheridan, I'm inclined to think he was telling the truth because the camera doesn't show him seeing anything. (Unless they just want us to believe him.) It's possible that, given their pantheon, there is no one image that would represent a god. It's also possible that Kosh won't show himself to allies of the Shadows.

Date: 2010-09-08 10:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alto2.livejournal.com
if a person engages in a holy war thinking he or she is somehow chosen and thus above the law, bad things will happen and this person will turn into a modern-day Jack the Ripper. Only when we determine that a person does not believe they are the One True Hero and that someone else could take their place will that person manage to avoid the pitfalls of power.

I...am going to have to disagree for this particular situation. Something like this, you need egomaniacs who believe they can/will win and who are FUCKING CRAZY, like Delenn and to a lesser extent Sheridan, because sane people are going to take one look at the odds and go, "Well, shit, we're screwed."


Okay, so, see...I got issues with this. Big ones. Like, several comments' worth, most likely.

Part of the reason I love this episode is because of the effect it has on the viewer. It forces us as we watch it to ask who each of us is, to ask if we could ever be so dedicated to a cause that we would submit to something this horrible in its name, and if we could ever believe in something to the extent where we couldn't see anything else. And if we can, what does that mean for us and those around us? Is it a good thing (our society lionizes deep focus) or will it destroy us. I'd think that, offscreen somewhere after this episode, all that occurs to Sheridan and Delenn in one helluva big way, too.

But that's not why I have issues with what you're saying here. I have issues with it because history stands in the way of your point. Pick your historical nutjob--Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong Il, Saddam Hussein, maybe even George W. Bush--and you'll see that every blessed one of them would have failed the Vorlon test. Every one of them believed with incredible single-mindedness that they were absolutely right and that no one else could see that more clearly than they could--and I think we've seen what happened to people who disagreed with them. It generally didn't go well. And along the way, you could say that, to varying degrees, each of these people lost touch with his humanity. You'll notice that there are no "good guys" on the list (unless you watch Fox News).

There's a reason for this. You're assuming that an adviser is going to get through to someone this single-minded when they're about to ride off the rails, but history shows us otherwise. Psychology shows us otherwise. Once you reach a certain point, you're past listening to other folks, and that, generally speaking, is why we end up with atrocities. You've gobbled up your own propaganda to where you believe every morsel of it and anyone who disagrees gets his head chopped off. Garibaldi, Ivanova, Lennier--in the situation as you outline it, they don't last very long. There's a certain naïvete in the belief that they ever would have.

Date: 2010-09-08 10:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alto2.livejournal.com
I don't think you need someone crazy in order to win something like a Shadow War. I certainly don't think that's what you want, either. I don't think Sheridan's an egomaniac, and I don't think Delenn is, either (though I also don't find her as manipulative as you do, either--Kosh, on the other hand, is the king of manipulation). They both know it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to win. But they also both believe that the alternative is worse, and that to sit back and let it happen is even more unthinkable--and that they therefore can't live with themselves if they don't act. What choice do they really have, when you break it down? Someone's got to do it. Nobody else is lining up. And they have friends who are willing to have their backs, to the best of their ability.

The Vorlon test proves that they've not lost touch with their humanity, that they're not expecting that they're so blessed that divine intervention will take care of it all for them, that they know they're not perfect and are therefore willing to listen to dissenting opinions rather than "knowing" that they're right all the time (which might, you know...save a few lives here and there), and that they will, therefore, do the right thing more times than not without losing sight of what they're fighting for in the process--which is really all you can ask of someone in their position. As far as I'm concerned, it's the sort of thing you really need to know about ANYONE before you follow them anywhere. It's not that you want someone totally realistic; you don't. That's the person who will run screaming from something this big. You want the idealistic person who has just enough realism to know that they have high hopes, so high that they might get dashed in the process of going after them, but that the possibility of defeat doesn't mean it's not worth trying. As Margaret Mead said, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

So, yeah, I think the Vorlons know exactly what they're doing, in their ridiculously manipulative way (let's not forget that as counterpoint to the Shadows, they're really no better--they simply choose means we tend to like more). I don't think it's bullshit at all--I think that from an orderly Vorlon point of view, the very last thing they want is to unwittingly unleash a Hitler on the world and do the Shadows' work for them, and their test is designed to prevent exactly that. Besides which, the idea of putting someone who's completely lost his/her mind in charge of something like this is just something they would never, ever do.

Date: 2010-09-09 02:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alto2.livejournal.com
I should totally be, you know...sleeping. So I will do my best to be coherent before I swan off for the night. :)

What about Churchill? FDR? Joan of Arc? I

I actually almost included Joan of Arc in my list before I decided it wasn't fair to include someone who didn't really have that much power and was basically a convenient pawn. The power element is the important one here--if it weren't for that, this episode wouldn't exist. But there's a good reason why I didn't put Churchill or FDR on the list, and it's because neither of them were batshit fucking crazy. They had to believe in themselves, yes, but Churchill didn't gas people. FDR didn't try to take over the world. And they both surrounded themselves with exceptionally smart people who, I'll wager, were expected to differ with them whenever the occasion arose, because the potential cost of an incorrect move was unthinkable. They're not in the same category at all. I see Sheridan and Delenn as much more Churchill/FDR than Napoleon/Hitler/Stalin/etc. If it were left to them, I don't think either would choose to fight this war (assuming it were optional), but it's fight or die, and nobody else is going to do it (nobody else will even admit the Shadows exist when they get started) so they damn well better step up.

these two are in NO POSITION to give themselves up without a DAMN good reason. Otherwise, the whole alliance falls apart, as we see at the beginning of S4 when the League races are running scared because Sheridan's supposedly dead.

But we don't know that yet in S2 because there is no alliance yet. And even if there were, wouldn't that kinda make them all that and a bag of chips after all? I don't think, by the way, that Sebastian (or Kosh/the Vorlons) are actually saying, "You're going to have to sacrifice yourself. Get used to the idea." I think they're asking exactly how dedicated you are. Your garden variety defense enthusiast is gonna say, "No way, are you nuts? I know this nice little deserted planet that's looking good right about now," but the ones who really get how important something is will be willing to go the whole way if that's what's necessary. That's what's happening here.

As for the egotism...I am going to venture to guess that most B5 fans don't see those characters as raging egomaniacs just because how the hell would you ever get yourself to watch the show if you did? I don't. I see Delenn as the one who knows that something deadly and evil is coming back and thus has been sent by her people--who do get it but know that even they are no match for this creatures--to convince others that something must be done before it's too late. If you're the only one who truly understands something like that and your attempts encounter skepticism (which they do from almost everyone but the B5 crew, at first), you're going to get frustrated, and your efforts will ratchet up until you risk becoming a parody of yourself. Every scene where she explains this stuff to someone comes across to me as someone who knows that she has a sacred duty to bring some sort of force together or her skin, and everyone else's, is literally on the line. And I think it's also possible that she suspects they're all doomed if that prophecy doesn't come to pass, though I've never really seen her as all that focused on prophecy either--I mean, yes, she knows it, believes it, and certainly passes it on to others, but it's not like she's obsessed with it--again, it would make her an unwatchable character. To me, it's an element of her religious caste background, but it's not the whole character. I see her more as the one who wants to do the right thing because it's right than the one who's manipulating everyone because a fortune teller told her to. (Again, I last watched a year ago, so I could be a little fuzzy, but that's always been my overall impression of her.)

Date: 2010-09-09 02:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alto2.livejournal.com
Sheridan has his issues, but let's not forget that he comes in like a happy little puppy and it doesn't take too too long before his tail's not wagging much anymore. He doesn't operate on ego alone, and certainly not after he realizes what he's up against. I think he knows he's damn lucky to have the Minbari and, to some extent, the Vorlons on his side, because without them and things like the White Stars, Rangers, etc, he'd be completely fucked. He has to know that. Has to.

The Fascism theory sounds like it could be interesting. But I'm tired and going to bed (which is why I'm too lazy to edit this post and will split it instead). :)

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