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Divided Loyalties
I feel like this is pretty much the Ivanova episode. We get to see her be brave and scared and happy and sad and angry, occasionally all at the same time! We learn her deepest, darkest secret, and watch her world shatter. We get the first inkling that she's going to rebuild it with bitterness mortaring every brick.
It's also pretty much the first and only episode where Talia gets really interesting. (Dude, even her hair looked better once she was taken over!) *sigh* Oh, Talia. The awesome things you could have done. And Garibaldi even remembered the VCR recording her personality...but apparently that avenue didn't work out so well. Someone, by which I mean
mylittleredgirl, should write the fic where Ivanova and Garibaldi mount a rescue operation and replace the alternate personality with her memories from the VCR, then become an OT3.
And, you know, canon femslash, which is never a bad thing. I hear there are people out there who still believe Susan and Talia were just friends, but I don't think I've ever seen one of them in the wild. (Oh, they could've been so happy. I mean, I wouldn't have been happy, because I would've had to put up with Talia, but, you know. They were adorable.)
I know I raised this concern in my original post on the episode, but I must reiterate: it's pretty obvious that Susan and Talia had sex while they were having their sleepover. (I tend to think it was their first time, given the awkwardness surrounding Susan's invitation, but that's neither here nor there.) How the hell did Susan not know that Talia would figure out her secret when they touched? This strikes me as something her mother would've told her. I can see why the alternate personality wouldn't have let Talia say anything when she found out, but I still don't get how Susan let it progress that far.
My other question about this episode from last time is why they didn't keep Talia in lockup for assault on the security guards and attempted assault on Lyta. I guess the thought process was that by trying Talia, they'd have to let the world know about the sleeper program, and so then the Corps would feel no compunction about telling EarthForce HQ about the underground railroad, and they'd all be court martialed. The "Mexican standoff" would be over. This makes sense, and yet still feels unsatisfying.
But anyway. We get a Lyta this time! I quite enjoy Lyta. She istouched by Vorlons!!1!!11!!!eleventy!!! crazy, but nifty all the same. I noticed that when she was talking to Delenn, her image was reflected in Delenn's mirrored suncatcher. They did a lot with Talia in mirrors in S1, to the point where I thought it was some kind of preview of the alternate personality, but perhaps it's instead some kind of visual trope for telepaths. Or maybe just a coincidence.
We also get Delenn being sort of aggressively cute with the "But what?" scene. Gotta admit, I think she was faking confusion in order to make Sheridan smile, although her declaration in the next episode that she's been studying Earth slang makes me wonder. But when she was all, "See, something comes along to lighten your day! That's the way the universe works!", I was definitely thinking, "Actually, that's the way you work, dear." Bless.
The Long Twilight Struggle
I had completely forgotten how much they packed into this episode. Nevertheless, I spent most of it going, "Oh, G'Kar." His speech about freedom is one of his finest moments. Here, 'cause it ought to be quoted:
No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
Oh, G'Kar.
And a much less pained "Oh, Londo," because given what will happen to him later, he's worthy of a little pity right now. You can really tell in this episode that things have spun way, way, way out of his control. One of the few things I admire about him is that once he realizes this, he doesn't snivel and whine; he pretty much rolls with it and accepts that, say, Garibaldi is never going to respect him again. ...And then he goes an behaves very jerkishly at the council meeting, but I have to give him some props for that scene in customs with Michael.
The other ruling Centauri, though...not a chance of respect. Way to overreact there, fellas. 500 Narns for each Centauri killed...yes, this will go over well, I'm sure.
In the other plotline, we have Draal's return! The actor is totally chewing the scenery, but it totally works for him. Hee. You know, he's pretty much the only Minbari besides Lennier who's expressed any kind of positive opinion about Delenn's change. I think she needed to hear that at this point.
We also have Sheridan getting clued in on the Rangers. Someone clue me in: why doesn't Delenn just make him her second in command? As I recall, she's no slouch in the command department. Obviously he would need to have some authority over them, but I don't see why she couldn't have retained ultimate authority. (Isn't two people at the chain of command's head kind of a bad idea, anyway?) I don't think this is ever really explained, and it bothers me. I mean, hell, she knows way more about the Shadows than he does. Even though she and Kosh have been feeding him information, I feel like she's the better choice for ultimate leader at this point. Not to mention that Sheridan has his own problems to worry about with EarthGov. Maybe she's just caught up in the "humans are the answer!" rhetoric she's been spouting?
I feel like this is pretty much the Ivanova episode. We get to see her be brave and scared and happy and sad and angry, occasionally all at the same time! We learn her deepest, darkest secret, and watch her world shatter. We get the first inkling that she's going to rebuild it with bitterness mortaring every brick.
It's also pretty much the first and only episode where Talia gets really interesting. (Dude, even her hair looked better once she was taken over!) *sigh* Oh, Talia. The awesome things you could have done. And Garibaldi even remembered the VCR recording her personality...but apparently that avenue didn't work out so well. Someone, by which I mean
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And, you know, canon femslash, which is never a bad thing. I hear there are people out there who still believe Susan and Talia were just friends, but I don't think I've ever seen one of them in the wild. (Oh, they could've been so happy. I mean, I wouldn't have been happy, because I would've had to put up with Talia, but, you know. They were adorable.)
I know I raised this concern in my original post on the episode, but I must reiterate: it's pretty obvious that Susan and Talia had sex while they were having their sleepover. (I tend to think it was their first time, given the awkwardness surrounding Susan's invitation, but that's neither here nor there.) How the hell did Susan not know that Talia would figure out her secret when they touched? This strikes me as something her mother would've told her. I can see why the alternate personality wouldn't have let Talia say anything when she found out, but I still don't get how Susan let it progress that far.
My other question about this episode from last time is why they didn't keep Talia in lockup for assault on the security guards and attempted assault on Lyta. I guess the thought process was that by trying Talia, they'd have to let the world know about the sleeper program, and so then the Corps would feel no compunction about telling EarthForce HQ about the underground railroad, and they'd all be court martialed. The "Mexican standoff" would be over. This makes sense, and yet still feels unsatisfying.
But anyway. We get a Lyta this time! I quite enjoy Lyta. She is
We also get Delenn being sort of aggressively cute with the "But what?" scene. Gotta admit, I think she was faking confusion in order to make Sheridan smile, although her declaration in the next episode that she's been studying Earth slang makes me wonder. But when she was all, "See, something comes along to lighten your day! That's the way the universe works!", I was definitely thinking, "Actually, that's the way you work, dear." Bless.
The Long Twilight Struggle
I had completely forgotten how much they packed into this episode. Nevertheless, I spent most of it going, "Oh, G'Kar." His speech about freedom is one of his finest moments. Here, 'cause it ought to be quoted:
No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
Oh, G'Kar.
And a much less pained "Oh, Londo," because given what will happen to him later, he's worthy of a little pity right now. You can really tell in this episode that things have spun way, way, way out of his control. One of the few things I admire about him is that once he realizes this, he doesn't snivel and whine; he pretty much rolls with it and accepts that, say, Garibaldi is never going to respect him again. ...And then he goes an behaves very jerkishly at the council meeting, but I have to give him some props for that scene in customs with Michael.
The other ruling Centauri, though...not a chance of respect. Way to overreact there, fellas. 500 Narns for each Centauri killed...yes, this will go over well, I'm sure.
In the other plotline, we have Draal's return! The actor is totally chewing the scenery, but it totally works for him. Hee. You know, he's pretty much the only Minbari besides Lennier who's expressed any kind of positive opinion about Delenn's change. I think she needed to hear that at this point.
We also have Sheridan getting clued in on the Rangers. Someone clue me in: why doesn't Delenn just make him her second in command? As I recall, she's no slouch in the command department. Obviously he would need to have some authority over them, but I don't see why she couldn't have retained ultimate authority. (Isn't two people at the chain of command's head kind of a bad idea, anyway?) I don't think this is ever really explained, and it bothers me. I mean, hell, she knows way more about the Shadows than he does. Even though she and Kosh have been feeding him information, I feel like she's the better choice for ultimate leader at this point. Not to mention that Sheridan has his own problems to worry about with EarthGov. Maybe she's just caught up in the "humans are the answer!" rhetoric she's been spouting?
no subject
Date: 2010-07-17 05:33 am (UTC)This is totally the best possible way of describing what happens with Susan. I feel the same way you do about Talia (only being interesting when her bad personality takes over, etc, and she makes me want to rip my hair out otherwise), but it's so clear that Susan falls for her so hardcore. (Oedipal issues? Just a bit...) And after a total betrayal like that, yeah, it makes sense that she just kind of snaps. Between this and the thing with Marcus... dear god, Susan just can't catch a break, the poor thing. She's so freaking cursed. It's just awful.
We also get Delenn being sort of aggressively cute with the "But what?" scene. Gotta admit, I think she was faking confusion in order to make Sheridan smile
She so totally was. To be perfectly frank, there is no way Delenn could be as competent at speaking English as she appears to be without knowing one of our most common conjunctions. She just loves to watch the way Sheridan's brain melts out his ears when she pretends to be adorably helpless. And really, who can blame her?
Obviously he would need to have some authority over them, but I don't see why she couldn't have retained ultimate authority.
I agree with you that it would've made a hell of a lot more sense for Delenn to make Sheridan her 2nd, and I have two theories as to why. One is the cynical out-of-show answer, and the other is the "and here's my version of the in-character reason" answer.
Cynical: JMS was worried that no one would take Sheridan seriously if a giiiiiirl made him her 2nd in command on a military thing. OMG, that'd just be wrong. (Excuse me while I wander off to wash that bitterness out of my mouth, because Delenn and Ivanova both totally pwn Sheridan when it comes to both tactics and leadership, but I just can't quite convince myself that there isn't some of this lurking under the surface, even if it was purely subconscious on JMS's part.)
In-character (and, IMHO, more amusing) answer: It's all part of Delenn's ongoing campaign to maneuver Sheridan into his DESTINED POSITION as her life-partner-other-side-of-prophecy-fulfillment-thing. Seriously, I'm wondering if there's any action on Delenn's part that cannot be explained by her constant pursuit of her DESTINY. And of course Sheridan is part of that DESTINY, so she has to keep him close, keep him involved, keep him interested... and keep him thinking that oh yes, of course it's him being a hero. Of course it is. Totally.
...Besides, basically I figure it's a nominal kind of thing, he can give orders and so on if he wants, but she's still obviously the one in charge of them. She just wants him to feel involved.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-17 09:16 pm (UTC)Yep. Her family's deaths didn't do her any good, that's for sure, but Talia is where she pretty much decides the universe is a supremely uncaring and hostile place.
(Oedipal issues? Just a bit...)
Yeah, I try not to think too hard about that.
Between this and the thing with Marcus... dear god, Susan just can't catch a break, the poor thing. She's so freaking cursed. It's just awful.
I think this is why I keep trying to write fluff for her. She needs something.
Cynical: JMS was worried that no one would take Sheridan seriously if a giiiiiirl made him her 2nd in command on a military thing.
You're probably right. Nineties sci-fi was a bit...male-oriented.
Seriously, I'm wondering if there's any action on Delenn's part that cannot be explained by her constant pursuit of her DESTINY.
I don't think there is!
And of course Sheridan is part of that DESTINY, so she has to keep him close, keep him involved, keep him interested... and keep him thinking that oh yes, of course it's him being a hero. Of course it is. Totally.
Hee. Yeah, this is pretty much the explanation I'm going for.
...Besides, basically I figure it's a nominal kind of thing, he can give orders and so on if he wants, but she's still obviously the one in charge of them. She just wants him to feel involved.
*snerk* If only there had been a moment where they gave conflicting orders, and we got to watch everyone immediately follow Delenn's rather than Sheridan's, because, well, yes. :D
no subject
Date: 2010-07-18 02:52 am (UTC)Me too. The poor thing just needs some kind of break.
If only there had been a moment where they gave conflicting orders, and we got to watch everyone immediately follow Delenn's rather than Sheridan's, because, well, yes. :D
Exactly. :D It would be so fantastically awesome, and Sheridan would be so D: about it.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-19 05:07 am (UTC)Because. Eeee. I'm still not sure why the Corps left Susan be after taking Talia back. They MUST have had a reason. And it's totally from shredding Talia's mind that they chose Garibaldi for their crazy S4 craziness. FOR SRS.
TELEPATHS! *flails with glee* I'm so glad we can come to a common goal with an OT3. :)
no subject
Date: 2010-07-19 05:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-19 05:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-19 05:35 pm (UTC)I'm still not sure why the Corps left Susan be after taking Talia back. They MUST have had a reason.
Yes, there HAD to be some kind of machination involved there.
And it's totally from shredding Talia's mind that they chose Garibaldi for their crazy S4 craziness. FOR SRS.
YES.
I'm so glad we can come to a common goal with an OT3. :)
OT3s solve the world's problems! :D
no subject
Date: 2010-07-19 06:28 pm (UTC)Also, still want to write Sinclair sending the Rangers to rescue her since she's The Future and all, and then in S4 her being all "O HAI check out mi Minbari robez" and Garibaldi and Ivanova being all "!?"
no subject
Date: 2010-07-19 10:00 pm (UTC)(I am greedy, I know.)